Navigating Business with Joy, Creativity, and Collective Support with Meag Keane

[00:00:00] Meag: One of the things that's really interesting about the fifth house to me is that a lot of people come to an astrologer to ask about their career. Sometimes they'll describe it as like, they want to talk about their purpose, but if you dig at it, they're really asking, like, how should I be spending the majority of my time, which in capitalism is often our jobs, unfortunately.

[00:00:24] That job stuff is found in multiple houses, but by and large, it's found in the 10th house, not the fifth. And these two houses are actually thought to not be able to see each other, which I find delightful because it suggests that our joy and our pleasure is not actually supposed to be synonymous with our work.

[00:00:42] Now, sometimes for some people, there's different ways that these houses end up linked up in some other capacity in the chart. There's so many different ways for the planets to like, Describe our lives to us, but I think like the inherent structure of the fifth house is, is like, how do I do [00:01:00] things that quote unquote waste time that I enjoy

[00:01:07] Jessica: your journey to the divine is an intimate exploration of self where you are both the seeker and the source of enlightenment. I Jessica Paschke invite you to break free from the ordinary to reforge your spiritual path with courage, curiosity and audacity. Unleash the power of your spiritual connection, stepping into a purpose driven life free of have tos and shoulds.

[00:01:31] Join me on this profound exploration of rediscovery where you'll not only redefine your own spiritual practice, but also inspire a collective awakening. Welcome to reclaiming our spirit.

[00:01:49] Welcome, welcome, welcome back to reclaiming our spirit. I am sitting across from one of the most favorite people. I just love talking to them. All the time, any [00:02:00] time I get to spend with Meag, it's a good day. And Meag, thank you so much for being here. I really, really appreciate it.

[00:02:10] Meag: It

[00:02:10] Jessica: is my

[00:02:11] Meag: pleasure.

[00:02:12] Jessica: So for those of you who don't know, Meag is a writer, astrologer, herbalist.

[00:02:18] And astrology and herbalism are just the two ways that Meag listens to that, they call sparkling fishnet of time space, which couldn't get more magical than that. Just a lot, one of the way that I say

[00:02:34] Meag: things.

[00:02:35] Jessica: Yeah, no, it's never a lot. It's absolute perfection. And you also specialize in the, the fifth house.

[00:02:42] Which is what we're going to chat about today. So before we dive in though, moment of joy, was there like a week, two weeks ago, where there was a moment of joy that you had,

[00:02:57] Meag: the first thing that comes to mind [00:03:00] is I realized that. The entire trilogy of the Lord of the Rings is on Spotify. I'm not trying to like plug Spotify or anything, but like, and Andy circus is the one reading all the books.

[00:03:12] Oh my gosh. I didn't know. And he does all the voices. So like, it's so entertaining. And so my partner and I have been listening to it, like in between little moments, like driving to the grocery store, falling asleep, you know, it's just been, and it's just like Little dips into one of my favorite worlds.

[00:03:29] And it's so rich and it's just a little escape, not escape. And I love that. I love it. It's just such a little treat.

[00:03:39] Jessica: Oh my gosh. I love that. Now I'm going to have to go listen. What about you? My moment of joy. There's been a lot of little things. One of the ones that I love that was not planned, sort of like spontaneous, but kind of expected was.

[00:03:57] I plant heirloom [00:04:00] flowers and vegetables wherever I live. And because they're heirloom, they plant themselves wherever. And so now is the season where the magic starts to happen, where you're like, it's zinnias everywhere in the most random places. Zinnias growing by the driveway, random zinnias in the garden beds, random zinnias in the little wooded part of the, the yard, like they're just popping up.

[00:04:26] Just one, sometimes three. And it makes me so happy because it's like these bright pinks and like all these different colors and they're just, who knows where it's gonna be next. Who knows when I step out where the next Zinnia will come. Like they're coming up through rocks. It just makes me so happy.

[00:04:42] Meag: Uh, flowers will do that.

[00:04:44] I feel like, um, the other thought that came to my mind when you were asking that question was just like, any time I saw a flower in the last, Day, just like on a walk, especially right now, like the, the big [00:05:00] bumblebees are like hanging out and like falling asleep. I can't believe we get to live on this planet.

[00:05:05] It's like tiny little miracles every day. And thank goodness because it's fucking hard out there. So, um, so taking, taking a minute to be like, man, flowers is, is like one of the ways I get through, you know, it

[00:05:22] Jessica: totally is. It totally is. I feel you on that. So spots of spontaneous joy. So let's dive in. Can we talk about what the fifth house is in astrology first?

[00:05:36] Like, so that we have this really solid foundation so people know what we're, what we're about to really dive into deep.

[00:05:42] Meag: Yeah. For folks who aren't that into astrology, and even if you're just starting out, the houses are not even like the most beginnery thing you learn anyway. So we have the planets, In the sky, and we also have zodiac signs, but there's another way that we sort of divvy up [00:06:00] what we're looking at, and that's the house system.

[00:06:02] So the houses go from 1 to 12, and they each describe kind of like an area of life or like a cluster of themes. And the fifth house is about joy and delight and pleasure and creativity, which is complicated because creativity, I would not say for everyone is like always joy and delight. Even people who feel like their creative practice is really like thriving.

[00:06:30] It's not one note for sure. And then also sometimes children. Questions about fertility, which I do not work on. That's like a specialty that people have. Um, but it is this like place of fecundity and meaning making, I would say, and like culture making, but also leisure and yeah, which sounds like a bunch of like, how do those all go together?

[00:06:55] But I, I understand it through that lens of fertility, not human fertility [00:07:00] necessarily, but like the fertility of the earth, speaking of flowers. And like this green aliveness that's in all things. And how do we access that? When is it hard to access that? And you know, this part of the chart is supposed to be like the best stuff of life.

[00:07:16] And it's actually really tender for a lot of people. Cause like when this part of the life isn't accessible, it feels like everything is wrong. Like it's just so tough and, and I feel like, Every way that we can learn what joy and delight and feeling into those experiences are like, we need to grab everything that we can to feel into that.

[00:07:38] Um, it's such an important and I think like a good, it's important for individual people, but I also think it's an important political project too. Yeah,

[00:07:47] Jessica: and you're right. When it's hard to access those things, that stymies our ability to create and to bring things to fruition in our life that feel fulfilling, that feel [00:08:00] meaningful, that feel good.

[00:08:03] That's huge. So let's say we're looking at this idea of the fifth house and like, I can see directly like the direct line between like, okay, I'm living my life and that makes sense and dah, dah, dah, dah, dah. But I own a business. Or I'm a, I have a practice or I'm a healer. What does the fifth house hold for me in respects to that?

[00:08:29] How can that understanding of how that, that house operates in our charts, how can that help us navigate that world as well?

[00:08:41] Meag: One of the things that's really interesting about the fifth house to me is that a lot of people come to an astrologer to ask about their career. Sometimes they'll describe it as like, they want to talk about their purpose, but if you dig at it, they're really asking, like, how should I be spending the majority of my time, which in capitalism is often our jobs, [00:09:00] unfortunately.

[00:09:01] And that job stuff is found in multiple houses, but by and large, it's found in the 10th house, not the 5th. And these two houses are actually thought to not be able to see each other, which I find delightful because it suggests that our joy and our pleasure is not actually the supposed to be synonymous with our work.

[00:09:21] Now, sometimes for some people, there's different ways that these houses end up linked up in some other capacity in the chart. There's so many different ways for the planets to like describe our lives to us. But I think like the inherent structure of the fifth house is, is like, how do I do things that quote unquote waste time that I enjoy?

[00:09:43] How do I do the things that are just like for joy itself without guilt or shame or feeling like all the shoulds are stacking up. Yeah. And so for people who are running their own businesses, which is so much work and often is like a labor of love, like most people [00:10:00] who do this are at least trying to do what they love for a living.

[00:10:03] At least that's how most people that I know who do this sort of thing. And so it is complicated. Like what happens to job and joy when you start combining them? How do you figure out how to keep some parts of your life? That are not going to be bound up in the pushing and the stress of your job, but also be in devotion to the reason why you're doing this work in the first place and hope that it brings you joy and hope that it also shares joy with other people.

[00:10:33] So like it is a mess, like it is. And I think one of the things that astrology is so good at is like looking at the mess and saying it is. Now what? Like, and it, because astrology is so tangled, it speaks to our tangles really beautifully. And usually once we can like really look at that, the ways through it, I don't want to say the way out.

[00:10:54] Cause I don't think that like we ever get like fully rescued from the ways our lives are complicated and hard, [00:11:00] but it does kind of like tilt your head and see it a little differently and that can make all the difference in the world. I think that the fifth is one of the places where. We can once we have like, you know, I talked to a lot of people who are professional artists as well as people who do creative work for a living and other less like obviously like capital a art ways.

[00:11:22] And the, how, how hard it gets when like you finally, you know, you finally do the thing you've been wanting to do and you're still not really happy because it's hard, you know? And like, there's so much in like the fear of like, if I do what I love for a living, will I ruin it? Like all of these things are very much tied to fifth house questions or like wanting things that are not your main thing.

[00:11:46] These like adjacent to the side hobbies, interests. That also feeds you, but don't have to do with the job that you kind of feel like you should be doing all the time. All of that stuff gets kind of loaded into the [00:12:00] fifth house. So, um, there's always lots to talk about for people who are doing what they love for a living when it comes to that part of the chart.

[00:12:06] Jessica: That's huge. In your experience, just like speaking for yourself, how do you navigate that?

[00:12:14] Meag: Badly, badly. Um, so I've been doing a job that I genuinely love and terrifies me constantly for, I think this is my third year doing third sister full time. Um, so the way that my chart is set up, the sixth house, which has to do with like, If I had to just pick like a word, it's like the grind. Yeah. There are other words to like the upkeep, your health, how you handle your day to day.

[00:12:41] How do you do all the unsexy parts of being here that make it possible to be here? That part of my life and my joy, happiness, creativity, they're ruled by the same planet. So they're very bound up in each other for me. And so it's been really difficult to figure out [00:13:00] how to find restorative practices that bring me joy that aren't this work because This work was what I used to do for fun.

[00:13:11] Right. And now it's my work. It is fun and it is fulfilling, but I do have to rest this part of myself so I can keep doing this. And I've had to really like dig pretty deep to figure out what else I can do to like take true breaks. Because if it were up to me, I'm so passionate about this work. Like this is all I would do.

[00:13:36] Even if it wasn't like literally seeing clients, I would be taking more classes. I would be reading more books. I would be writing more. And I, at some point you have to be like, wait, I, I love this, but I also want my life to be about other things too. And also those other things like, spoiler, feed the thing.

[00:13:53] Like it's, it's like, yeah, I'm a better practitioner when I read not astrology books. I'm a [00:14:00] better practitioner when I'm being a good friend. I'm a better practitioner when I'm spending time with like. The spirits who are important to me and the land that I'm on and like, not just have a head in a computer all the time.

[00:14:12] Yeah, that is so hard. I mean, how do you navigate it? You've been doing this work for a while.

[00:14:18] Jessica: Ebb and flow. It's not, I will tell you this. I will tell you this. I am so passionate and so interested in so intrigued. And I think when you're purpose driven and you're tapping into something that really lights you up for your work, I think that's pretty common.

[00:14:33] And. And. I can see it bleeding over the line. So I try to take, I try to like hard schedule in time in my calendar where I have to turn off because once I turn off, I like enjoy being turned off, but like, I don't choose it because I also enjoy being in it and creating and communicating and connecting and all those things that light me up.

[00:14:58] So for example, we're [00:15:00] getting ready to move. And initially when I was planning it in my brain. I was like, okay, we're just, we're moving from North Carolina to Massachusetts. And I was like, so it'll take this many days, like just the minimum amount. And I can just schedule around it and dah, dah, dah. And I'm like, what am I doing?

[00:15:16] Like, there's so much to explore and have fun with that. We need to be doing that. I asked Zephyr, my husband, I was like, listen, Hey, are you open to like taking some time off and like just totally turning off and doing the thing? And he's like, yeah. So instead now. We're taking a month and we're going to spend a few days on the beach down here in North Carolina in the RV with four cats, a dog and a child.

[00:15:43] It'll be fine. Well, we went Alaska to, to North Carolina. I can do this. It's fine. And so we're going to hang out by the beach and then we're going to go into the mountains. I'm going to work our way up through the mountains and just talk to trees and like take multiple days. There are wild ponies that need to be [00:16:00] seen.

[00:16:00] There are lakes that need to be swum in. There are trees that need to be hugged and we're just going to do that all the way up and just take a month where I turn off. And it took a lot to say yes, not only give myself permission to do this, but to lean into the joy of it as well. And to say that my.

[00:16:20] Business exists outside of me. Like it can continue without me being present. And I have a spiritual evolution, collective membership where I show up three times a month and I'm like, well, how am I going to do that? How am I going to do that? Because this was really important dancing around the fifth house.

[00:16:39] Like you said, it's the wellspring, right? This was important. And I just ask people, do you want to come in and, you know, Volunteer, just volunteer, teach a class, just guest expert, pick a day, pick a time. I don't care. Like, and come in and talk with my people who would love to learn about whatever it is that you do.

[00:16:55] It's amazing. People will do that. Like they want to connect too. And it gives me the space then [00:17:00] to come back and be super excited about the work I'm doing, get a different, different perspective. That space gives me a different perspective. And like you said, it fuels what probably is a wildly empty tank at this point.

[00:17:13] Meag: Mm hmm.

[00:17:14] Jessica: You know,

[00:17:15] Meag: one of the things I really love about the story you just told is that there may have been a time in your business where you didn't know if your business could run as, as its own being without you, or like you, maybe you weren't thinking about it like that, or it wasn't like established enough for you to feel like that.

[00:17:33] So your systems weren't set up so that it was the now you can because there's so much. I want to say like scarcity that comes up around stepping away from work, but it's not just scarcity. It's also like material reality of like, we have to make money to be here. And so saying like, Oh, just take time off, just rest more.

[00:17:50] Just like, you know, if you can, it's like, I, yes. And also like there's, uh,

[00:17:57] Jessica: right.

[00:17:58] Meag: And so I always want to be really [00:18:00] sensitive when talking about the importance of the fifth house to not. Overlook those material realities of people because like, I don't want to give people advice that's going to make them like, not have the resources that they need and what you described about stepping away and it actually made you be generous with your space and like, invite other people in and like, change something up.

[00:18:25] That's so beautiful. And to like, Basically, what you're doing is you're asking for help in a way that you're also giving people space to do something that they haven't maybe done before, or at least not with your people. It doesn't always have to look perfect. Like, I'm doing this thing or I'm not doing this thing.

[00:18:42] It can also be like, well, how else could this look? Is it only this or that, or is there like a secret third thing that could also be supportive? That is also a kind of playfulness and creativity that's really, really hard to access when you're super burnt out [00:19:00] or you're bracing so hard that the idea of softening.

[00:19:06] is just too terrifying. Yeah. Like there's something, you know, something I talk about a lot with my clients is how vulnerable play is. It feels like you're putting down your defenses because in a lot of ways you are, but that looseness also allows for access to, to things you wouldn't necessarily have had access to before and also a lot more ease as long as like you keep being able to build trust with the fact that it's safe to soften and it's not always like it really depends on your circumstances and your stories and so I think that's one of the other reasons why I like shame finds itself in such a So called happy place in the chart because that bracing is so real.

[00:19:47] The hypervigilance is real and there are good reasons that the mind spirit body chooses to like protect us that way. And so I'm just really glad that you were able to say, like, there's something I want. Is it [00:20:00] actually feasible? Great. And also what will make it even more feasible is if I draw other people in to what I'm doing, which is gorgeous.

[00:20:09] Jessica: Yeah. And of course planning. I've been working nonstop now for, you know, so that I can take a breather. But even if it's not, a whole month, which is totally a luxury. Even just saying, okay, I'm, I'm taking part of Friday off. Just something where it's a boundary that you put up and you're not putting something in that space unless something is completely on fire, emergency room level, right?

[00:20:39] Where you can just be,

[00:20:40] Meag: you know? Yeah. And honestly, most people I know who go, go, go, go, go. It doesn't actually Thank you. Or being like, make time for joy, like sounds kind of squishy, but like, Not doing it is not sustainable either. Like I, this is, there's something very, um, sort of like [00:21:00] business like about choosing to not do your business all the time.

[00:21:04] You know, I find it so irritating that when I just want to like push through some writing that I'm doing, I, the thing that actually helps is to do the painful thing of making myself get up and go take a walk. Yeah. And how hard it is to do that, even though I know. The writing will flow better if I do it.

[00:21:22] Those moments of resistance, and I think you were talking about this too, when you know once you're in a different kind of mental space, doing something for fun, doing something for no reason, just because all of these types of phrases. You know, you like it once you're in it, but there's that that little bridge moment we have to leap.

[00:21:46] Yeah. And I hate there's no amount of practicing this. That doesn't make me not like I have, I take, I take no pleasure in the shift. It's. Terrible. The resistance is so [00:22:00] agitating and I don't like that. It's not getting easier. The only thing that's getting easier is that I expect it, right? Like, I know, I know this is going to feel this way.

[00:22:10] I know my brain is going to come up with a bunch of really good arguments why I should just keep doing what I'm doing and how I'll do the other thing later. And this is like also something that I end up talking to a lot of people about is Like some people really just are like in a place in their life where they're like, I literally don't know what brings me joy anymore.

[00:22:25] I've completely lost track of it. And that is like a, that is something that it's a real, I work. Yeah. And I work with a lot of people who feel that way. And I also work with a lot of people who are like, no, I know what brings me joy. And I Don't know why I can't seem to do it. That's huge. I can't seem to like make time for it.

[00:22:44] Uh, be consistent with it, which I think is kind of a trap, but that's a whole other conversation. And then like, there's the consistency piece. And then I think that there's just like this feeling of like, if I know that I love to embroider, why is it that like, I haven't done it in [00:23:00] three months? If I know that I love to go for a run in the morning to start my day, how come I can't seem to do it?

[00:23:09] I know it makes me happy. I know like once I'm out there, it's like changes my whole mood for the whole day. How come I can't? And it's like those, that resistant moment is usually the reason and the reasons are underneath the resistance too. We walk around with so much like, why am I like this? The amount of like self judgment around not doing the things we know make us feel good is so interesting.

[00:23:30] There's so many other things you could be upset about. I wish it wasn't, I wish this one was, I could just take this one off everybody's plate, including my own plate. But

[00:23:39] Jessica: this comes up all the time in my work too. You know, if I say to people, well, what, what brings you joy, knowing that joy can be hard, what brings you joy?

[00:23:47] And they're like, I have no idea, you know, I have no idea. And then where do you start with uncovering that? Yeah. Well, so find [00:24:00] it.

[00:24:00] Meag: Yeah, totally. And I also think that like, sometimes when I talk to people who feel that way, they, we keep talking and they really don't, really don't know. And then I start talking about their chart and it starts to feel like it's coming into focus and their body language changes and they're.

[00:24:17] They start to sort of smile to themselves and they're like, yeah, that it, that, that does sound really good. And like, that's something I can imagine in my life. And, um, which is one of my favorite parts of my job, but also there are some people who will be like, well, I mean, I enjoy this, but like, that doesn't really count.

[00:24:33] I identify with this because I grew up, this is, this is so, so Saturn is responsibility, commitment, sustainability, longevity, devotion, not lighthearted. Really? Saturn rules my fifth house and is in my fifth house. Wow. So I grew up told often, like, can't you lighten up? Like, you're so serious, [00:25:00] you know? Cause a lot of what I love is really serious.

[00:25:03] Like it sounds kind of like homework, you know, like it doesn't, it's not. It's not loose in the same way that other people's favorite things might be. And so for a long time, I was like, I'm an unfun person. Like I'm just not, I don't really know how to do that. It's part of the reason why I offer this reading is because like, I tend to offer readings that I also about things I also struggle with, not the things I've mastered.

[00:25:28] And I've been giving this reading for two and a half years now, I think. And I've learned so much and I'm still like, I still find myself having to like apply some of this to my own chart when I find myself stuck because I am constantly finding new ways that this is hard for me. But the thing I wanted to say is that I think that some of us carry around and I am among the some of us ideas of like joy only counts if it looks like this.[00:26:00]

[00:26:00] Or creativity only counts if it looks like that. Ooh, that's um, play only looks. A certain way and for people who have maybe like a more serious fifth house, like mine, what we enjoy might not look like this is such a goofy example, but for some reason it's always in my mind. I probably have some memory, but like, like tossing a Frisbee around in the backyard, like on a summer day, it's just like not the vibe for whatever reason, like it's something else.

[00:26:28] And I think, or I'll talk to people who have, um, like an air sign fifth house, but that's like Libra, Aquarius, Gemini. And like a lot of what they really love is like a really good conversation, but they thought that they needed like a hobby that they would have to buy supplies for in order to make it

[00:26:50] Jessica: happen.

[00:26:51] Meag: Yeah. Those three signs. I'll do this a little bit differently. And I actually would say that Gemini definitely buys a lot of supplies, but there is, [00:27:00] there is like this thing about like being in a. Ideal land to be in exchange with someone else to be and if someone else doesn't have to be a person, it can be a more than human person.

[00:27:11] It can be another. It can be a book. It can be whatever. But there's some deep joy and delight to be like eating up thoughts and rearranging them and imagining new worlds that could be you. And like philosophies and politics and like all of this stuff and it's so and you watch people with these charts and they'll like start to really like just find this enthusiasm just talking about it and they're like, yeah, but that's not shouldn't I?

[00:27:39] I mean, I probably need like a like an actual thing. That is an actual thing, like, and so I think that, like, there are, I think that sometimes this stuff gets a little bit stuck. And one of the things I love about astrology is that it keeps saying over and over and [00:28:00] over again, there is, there are as many ways to do fill in the blank in this case.

[00:28:04] Joy, creativity, pleasure, as there are birth charts, as there are like configurations in the sky and everybody I can make generalizations about certain signs that coincide with the fifth house or like what it's like to have a Saturn as the ruler of the fifth house, but like, at the end of the day, everybody is a little bit different, even if I see patterns.

[00:28:24] Yeah, very, very. And there's so much. If I start saying what you could add to add layers onto it, that's all the podcast will be. So it's, it's super exciting to help people feel into that for themselves and to watch them start, like this, like blankness starts to get filled in over the course of our time.

[00:28:45] It's almost as

[00:28:46] Jessica: if we put stories around it or we pick other people's stories up or society's expectations of what joy should look like. And you sort of have to start peeling those layers back to get to the heart of what it means for you. And when you said creativity, it reminded me, I never [00:29:00] considered myself creative, which is hilarious, actually, right?

[00:29:03] Okay. All I do is create, but, but I remember thinking that creating something had to, you had to be an artist to be creative, even scrapbooking, which I cannot figure out how to do. Like I cannot, you can give me a pencil, you can give me paints and I will have fun, but like, I'm not creative. There's not the inspiration there, but my whole life I sang, I was an actor.

[00:29:28] Once again, I didn't associate that with being creative. Yeah. And then as I, as I got older, um, I was taking this class and they were talking about creativity in such a different way that I was like, Get the heck out. I'm creative. And I could like own that and step into that energy. And it brought me such joy.

[00:29:47] And now I'm like, yeah, I could create nonstop if I wasn't, I didn't put the brakes on.

[00:29:54] Meag: Yeah. Oh my gosh. Yeah. Two things. One, The [00:30:00] ruler of your, without revealing too much about your chart, the ruler of your fifth house is in your first house, which is like the, the place of you. So like you literally have the ruler, like the planet that's responsible for joy, pleasure, and creativity, like sits on your shoulder all the time, which is like with you.

[00:30:15] So like, if you came to me in a session, you were like, I'm not creative. I'd be like, okay, well, let's see what happens in an hour because I just I don't buy it. Um, and second of all, the thing you said about The scrapbook. I think so often people are like, I'm not this thing. And what they mean is I don't like this thing.

[00:30:35] True. Like this is not, I like, maybe I want to be the kind of person who would do this, but I just am not that into it. You know, like desire is such an important word when it comes to creativity. And if there isn't like a genuine desire, if like the process is not enjoyable for you, if it doesn't like. If you don't like lose yourself in it.

[00:30:59] Yes. There's [00:31:00] often like, yes, like the resistance moments for sure. But like when left to your own devices, once you push, when you, when you walk across that bridge, that is so tricky and you're in it. Are you like restless? Are you bored? Do you wish it was different? Does it feel kind of like this? I'm not able to, and, and this is something else that I think is like hard for people, including myself is like, just like admitting you don't, you don't like it.

[00:31:28] Like, it's not, it's not fun for you. You know, even if it's like fun for other people, you're like, I'm not creative because a creative person would like to scrapbook and be able to, you know, Put everything together in a way that looks really cool and beautiful and like reflects the time that I'm trying to commemorate.

[00:31:46] Because I don't know how to move forward with this, I must not be creative instead of just being like, maybe I'm not into scrapbooking. It's like bullet journaling.

[00:31:54] Jessica: I want to bullet journal so badly and I cannot. My daughter rocks it out. Her [00:32:00] journals are amazing. It's phenomenal. I cannot, but you know what happens in my journal is I dive deep.

[00:32:08] I go beneath the surface, like I'm rolling around ideas and thoughts and imaginings and like that revs me up. It doesn't call to me to draw pictures around it or doodle or whatever because it's coming out in the words.

[00:32:22] Meag: Mm hmm.

[00:32:24] Jessica: Creativity always for me was a visual art. So it took me so many years to realize that the words that I was writing, even if it never became a poem or a book or in anything, were still an act of creation.

[00:32:38] Totally. So half

[00:32:41] Meag: the birth chart is. above the earth. So like things you could see in the sky if it was nighttime, if you walk outside and half of the birth chart is below the horizon line in this hidden place. And what you were just describing reminds me a little bit of the fact that like the fifth house [00:33:00] is below the horizon line.

[00:33:01] It is not visible. And it is this kind of like, you can share it with other people, but the idea of it being like real or not based on whether. It is something you can easily share. It's in like a recognizable format is actually not what joy, pleasure, et cetera, is about. That's what like being in community and connection, like doing the sharing out is like a totally different part of the chart.

[00:33:26] This part, just like being with the experience of the thing as it's happening as like the creature that is. Coming into the world based on what you're doing, it's, it's becoming is like, it doesn't even matter if you never show anyone unless you want to, you know, and, and like, I think that's another thing that's really hard right now is like, it feels like people aren't real artists.

[00:33:49] They're not real bakers. They're not real, you know, Whatever, unless they have like an Etsy shop, something that they can like point to. I don't know why I'm saying, are there bakers [00:34:00] on Etsy? I don't think I have no idea, but like whatever the Etsy equivalent would be for like, I don't go to any farmers markets and I have a stall where I sell my, my baked goods.

[00:34:10] Like if you can't. If you're not actively monetizing it or like putting it into some kind of official format, it like it's illegitimate, which is just like not what the logic of the astrology charts suggests. And also like, I'm so glad because that seems like a bunch of capitalist crap. I agree. Like it.

[00:34:30] And that's the other thing to go back to like the business stuff is like, it is hard because it's like, you are monetizing this thing that you love. And how do you keep respecting? It and yourself while you do that, you know, like, that's another really tricky thing, which is, which I, I mean, it's something that I think about a lot, not because I don't think, for example, spiritual practitioners should make money because I do think we should make money.

[00:34:54] I do think it's like, yeah, like blending. [00:35:00] Money and that kind of exchange with the things you love changes it a little bit and like, how do you, how do you relate to that? I think is another big question for folks who do what they love for a living

[00:35:13] Jessica: and stay tapped into the essence of what brought you joy about it in the first place.

[00:35:19] Meag: Cause it's scary to, yeah, totally.

[00:35:23] Jessica: I see that happen a lot where people. Take what they love, they turn it into a business, and then all of a sudden the joy is sucked out of, out of them. Totally.

[00:35:31] Meag: I see the same thing with people going to art school or like doing anything that sort of like makes it very official in some way.

[00:35:39] Or they start to feel like there are external forces that make it hard for them to hear what they're in collaboration with when they're making the thing. We have to learn to like filter out that at least some of the time. And the only way I have learned [00:36:00] to do this really early on, before I even had third sister, my practice, I took a business class with Rebecca Altman, a friend of mine and teacher, it was not a business class, but it was, it was about like getting to know your business as a spirit, basically as a being, I do relate to.

[00:36:21] Many things, including ideas as beings now, and that's not just from that particular experience, but it definitely influenced it as part of that journey from going from like a rational materialist person to like a person who practices divination and magic and stuff for a living. I do think that my wheels really spin and I'm getting, I'm, I'm like holding everything really tight and it's starting to feel like.

[00:36:46] There's, there isn't really any joy in it, even acknowledging that like some parts of just running a business aren't fun. There are parts I don't like about that, you know, but, but like beyond when it gets like more than just that acknowledgement [00:37:00] and it feels like this is just, this isn't, this is, this is heartbreaking because I'm risking this thing that I love so much.

[00:37:07] And like, I also feel like. I've never had a job that had such high spiritual emotional stakes because like I've been able to like not care as much, you know, until now, but if I can like sit with whether it's like my business as a being and chat and check in and remember, I'm actually not doing this by myself.

[00:37:31] If it's like a piece of writing that I'm really frustrated by and it isn't coming together, then like the piece of writing itself, not to mention like spirits that are important to me that help me all the time anyway, but like specifically like the beings that are, you know, like just starting to like narrow it down and be like, okay.

[00:37:47] So you and me, how are we doing actually? Like, do you have opinions? Is there something you would like to say? Because so often when I get to that place of like really, really tightly holding onto things and, and starting to like give myself basically like a full body [00:38:00] migraine emotionally, um, I feel like what's happened is.

[00:38:04] I have forgotten that I'm not alone. Yes. That like, this isn't all up to me, which is like, honestly, kind of like, it's kind of a bit of hubris on my part anyway. Like, it's, it's humbling and empowering at the same time to like, not bootstrap it, you know, to like, not just be like, I have to push so hard for this to work.

[00:38:29] I can actually let go a little. It's scary, but like, I can trust more. And when I do that, I'd actually usually work that way better than. The other thing, but it's differently terrifying to let go like that.

[00:38:42] Jessica: Oh, no, it is. It is. And it's the, it's the letting go that opens up the next thing. I cannot tell you how many times I've come to you and being like, what in the world does my business want to be doing right now so that I can just work with it rather than against it.

[00:38:56] Because it is, it is more than just [00:39:00] this thing. I do. It takes a life of its own. And I don't know if it's because that's how you and I moved through the world. That's the infusion. That's the door that we opened that it makes it its own entity, its own being like you said. And there's more than just you that you're thinking about.

[00:39:17] You have to start working with that being, that energy's chart basically as well. They've, they've, they've got their own chart. So like, how can you work together as a team and make that happen? And I find that usually it is something like one of us is pushing and the other one is pulling back. And we just have to kind of come to this middle ground because we're both too energetic beings.

[00:39:39] Going on our own separate journeys and have come together to go on a joint journey as well with our own dreams and our own intentions and everything. And that usually helps loosen things up. I think for both of us. So whenever I'm getting an astrology reading from you and we're talking about my business, it's like, oh, we both understand more about [00:40:00] ourselves so that we can show up better.

[00:40:01] And I love that.

[00:40:03] Meag: I love looking at business charts. I actually don't do much human human sinistry anymore, but I do, I do really like to help people chat with their businesses. It's so interesting to look at like where you think you're supposed to go with your business and where your business is trying to go with the business.

[00:40:23] There are also times when I feel like It's a mystery moment. Most of the time, I want clear answers to come out of my astrology readings. Like I want you to walk away with something and you're like, okay, I have my next steps. I know what to do. I have the reframes. I feel more connected to my, let's say, Venus now.

[00:40:40] Like I, whatever, I'm going to start. hanging out with this plant and we're going to do this and I'm going to get to know Jupiter, whatever the case may be. But occasionally I have kind of like checked what's going on and it feels like, so sorry, the assignment is, you don't get any information right now.

[00:40:56] Like the assignment, the assignment is like, it's [00:41:00] going to be a foggy and weird for a minute. Write it out. Should clear up around this time. You know, recently we had a reading about your business and there was like, We came to some places, but it also felt like the roads are open. Yeah. There isn't like a specific thing you must do now, which I think sometimes is liberating and sometimes feels like, well, shit, I actually kind of did want, I did want an assignment.

[00:41:25] I would have really preferred if someone could have just said, It's door number three, walk through it, you know, um, but also like there's a certain amount of, again, trust there. That's like, no, you have options actually.

[00:41:38] Jessica: I think we get bound up and this comes back to the fifth house too, of like enjoying what we do.

[00:41:42] We get bound up in so much in the what we're doing that we forget about the how or the why that we're doing it. Yes. And sometimes even if I get really annoyed with spirit because they're not going to give me the what it's actually the gift. Because it's, it's redirecting me [00:42:00] to like tap into the, why am I doing what I'm doing?

[00:42:03] How do I want to do it? Cause there's so many ways, how do I want to do it in a way that lights me up, brings me joy and helps me hold space for other people's joy as well. And that could be a multitude of things, but I think in the business world, it's so easy to get caught up in the structure and the next thing and the 12 month plan.

[00:42:20] And, uh, When are you launching this? And I'm just

[00:42:23] Meag: laughing. Cause like I could never have a 12 month plan. Oh my God. I barely have a three month plan. I can make a

[00:42:29] Jessica: 12 month plan, but I have yet to reach and fulfill the 12 month. Like I make it to about month three and then I'm like, Oh my God, my work has evolved, my life has evolved or something has changed outside of my control.

[00:42:40] I just, it's tossed out the window. Joy sometimes comes in the not knowing, in the unknown, in the letting go, because we're so focused on the what, the detail of something. That we forget our why and our how in the moments where we just don't even know which direction to [00:43:00] go to tap into that 5th house place and say, okay, well, what's lighting me up brings me joy, and that will just be my next micro step forward may not be the answer to what I'm looking for, but at least in this moment, that's the thing that I'm looking Brings me a little bit forward, fills my tank because we're all told how much we should be doing or what we should be doing,

[00:43:25] that it almost feels more like sometimes we can get caught up playing business rather than working with this beautiful, energetic being that is our business.

[00:43:35] Meag: Yeah, you know, what you just described also reminds me of choosing to do the easy thing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. An astrologer I admire and a person I admire, Diana Rose Harper, has said somewhere at some point, hard mode is not more virtuous.

[00:43:54] Yes. And I think that there is a feeling that it's [00:44:00] supposed to be. Really hard. And that choosing the thing that actually feels just good to you makes it suspicious,

[00:44:09] Jessica: right?

[00:44:11] Meag: And also, like, do I get to just change my mind and do this other thing that's more exciting to me right now? And also, like, I don't know, being worried the other shoe will drop.

[00:44:21] It's like fear. It's kind of like weird, uh, superstitious feeling of, Well, if I make it easy on myself, isn't that cheating? Or like, I don't know, again, I think it's a very kind of like, um, puritanical, hard work ethic thing. Yeah, like if

[00:44:39] Jessica: I make it easy on myself now, does it make it like six times har is the six times harder gonna come back?

[00:44:44] Yeah. Because I think that's cheating. Yeah. And like, that work has to be hard to be work or success has to be hard to reach.

[00:44:52] Meag: Mm hmm. Like, you want to keep feeling like you're earning whatever, and I don't even mean money, I mean like earning it from like a worthiness [00:45:00] perspective. Yeah. And I think when you make it about like, well, okay, genuinely, what have I been like, unable to stop thinking about lately?

[00:45:09] What if I make a project about that instead of the thing that I had scheduled? And it's like, well, it would probably be like a lot easier to write about the thing I can't stop talking about or reading about or thinking about than the thing that I am like pulling my own teeth out in order to write. But shit, I did say it's like, like, why not choose the thing you're actually like you were saying lit up about if you can when you can't like how often do we have to do things we don't want to do the thing I forget about in my business and I have to remind myself all the time is I'm actually the boss.

[00:45:39] Yes. Like I forget this constantly. Like I, a lot of these like rules and metrics and goals, like I made them up. I can remake them up. Like it doesn't matter. It is real, but it is not real. Part of the creativity of being someone who runs their own business is the creation of the business. Like, how does [00:46:00] it feel?

[00:46:01] What do you want it to feel like? And, and like, if you're starting to feel like a dissatisfaction, you get to be like, well, what would be satisfying? You don't have to like appeal to your boss or like, and be like, could I maybe have a different role? You can just do it. And that's. Even like three years in something, I have to be like, Oh, right.

[00:46:21] Okay. So if I would prefer to do it this way, I can just do, but also like admitting what you want is really, really scary for a lot of people. Yeah. If you finally say like, this is actually what I want. And it, it will change you sometimes, especially if it's really different than what you've been saying you want.

[00:46:42] Or if like the desire feels so big that you're afraid to acknowledge it, because what if you don't get it, if you just don't say it, if you don't admit it, then you never have to be heartbroken that it didn't happen

[00:46:52] Jessica: or disappointed or no, I feel on that or have people wonder, well, what happened with that?

[00:46:59] It's [00:47:00] owning, I don't even want to say owning a business, having a practice, having a business. Collaborating with that energy is amazing and challenging equal parts at the same time, because you're, you're learning so much about yourself and who you are, you're constantly, like you said, it's this tangle and you're constantly like trying to like, look and figure out where the yarn is going and how it's moving and, and what you're doing with that.

[00:47:28] And I think that it's so easy to get lost in the tangle. That we forget to come kind of pull out and see what, what magic is happening in the whole.

[00:47:38] Meag: Yeah. It's also like so hard to see ourselves. Like I, just in general, I rely so much on my peers and friends and my clients to reflect back to me what on earth I'm doing, because like, I can do my best to try to see it, but like between being, it's being like really, really close [00:48:00] I also know that, like, I'm going to be projecting so many fears and, like, concerns onto it.

[00:48:07] When you're really excited and you're passionate and you can see where things could go. Yes. It's really hard to see like how far you've come or like how you've changed and you keep moving the bar, as they say. Having like a friend back up and be like, Hey, remember a year ago when, and I'm like, Oh my God, that was a year ago.

[00:48:24] You know what I mean? It's so helpful. I personally feel really grateful that at least in my little like corner of the astrology industry, I have so like, just such a richness of. Incredible practitioners that I get to refer people to when I like, you know, who you should really talk to, which is such a pleasure people to like share in and like, not feel really competitive with, like, I feel like there's a real sense of like rising tide type mentality.

[00:48:53] And just like, Reflection and support and like, Hey, how would you price this? And like, are you thinking [00:49:00] about this sort of thing? And have you guys used the software? Like, is it any, like just simple, the stuff that can make you really like spin your wheels if you're completely isolated doing this work? I think that's the other thing that can be really tricky is because you don't have any like coworkers or like people in the office with you besides you and not human people.

[00:49:19] It can be very isolating if you don't have those. Relationships. Um, and I'm, I don't know how I would do this without those relationships, to be honest, really. Honestly, I can say I would be like X, but I honestly can't even picture it. I don't even know what it would be like. No, I

[00:49:35] Jessica: agree with you. If I didn't have the people in my life to just, I don't know, bounce ideas off of and complain to, and whatever you're right, I don't know where I would be, I don't know that it'd be able to do what I do without that external.

[00:49:52] Support the sounding board. There's something about, we've been talking a lot about that this season about, you can only go so far by yourself. [00:50:00] You need the collective. We need the collective. And I think that humanity in a whole, they've moved out of the collective into this very independent, singular person kind of thing, and it's not working and we need to move back.

[00:50:14] Even if we're doing things like. Business or whatever, where we are primarily like the person doing it. We need a collective, we need to be part of a community, part of something bigger. Or it, it will only get us to a certain point and then, and then that's it. We need that infusion.

[00:50:34] Meag: Yeah. I think. At least in cultures that have been sort of, I'll say, like, infected with the hyper individualism thing, which is all I ever have ever known, so I can't really speak to cultures that aren't like that, but I know they exist, but like, for me, I think.

[00:50:51] There's a lot of pressure to like not ask for help and to also feel like you should have enough confidence that you just know your worth without having to like seek external [00:51:00] validation or whatever, which like great goal. Good luck. Definitely good to like get to a place where like you have some of that, like that is something human.

[00:51:09] I do think that it's unreasonable to ask us to be able to fully see all the many facets of ourselves on our own. You know, I mentioned referring out. It can be like even irresponsible to practice when you don't have a way to refer out because what do you do? Like, how much more pressure do you feel to be able to resolve things for your clients because you don't have anywhere else to send them?

[00:51:34] Like, it would be so tempting to do things that are way outside your lane. Right. It can't be

[00:51:39] Jessica: all things to all people.

[00:51:40] Meag: No, no, no. That, that way is saviorism in that way. That's a, that's a dark road. It's a pleasure to be able to send people to my colleagues for so many reasons. It just like lights me up. It makes me really happy, as I mentioned, but like the other thing about it is like, thank God.

[00:51:58] You know? And also it takes [00:52:00] the pressure off you to like specialize in everything. You can't. You can't. You know, it's just not possible. It's in. So like, and then on top of the referral kind of network, there's also like this beautiful thing that happens where like clients will come back and be like, I saw this person that you referred me to and we learned this and we did this together and now I want to do this with you.

[00:52:17] And then, and I also read that thing that you just did from this other person and now I'm in there. Patreon and discord. And like, it starts to like build more. Networks of relationship and people have more like more perspectives. And like in certain cases, like a more diverse kind of like support and care spirit team, you know, and that's like, that's so ideal.

[00:52:40] It also is like pretty, uh, it can help with like not pedestalling any one person to like the one who knows, you

[00:52:47] Jessica: know, which then the power dynamic gets off. It just gives it greater depth and it encourages curiosity in your clients to say, I wonder, and I bet there is. And to look [00:53:00] outside just So that there isn't that just that one point of view, I think in the spiritual world, that happens a lot when you've got that guru energy where it's like, no, you just go to the one and then you start speaking like them and only thinking like them.

[00:53:14] And then, like, the world becomes very small when in reality, you went on this adventure, you went on this pursuit to expand. And to broaden. And when you work with people who will refer out and who will share and who will say, no, you've got to check this out or whatever. And they're very generous with that.

[00:53:33] I think the client gets so much more. Oh my God, so much more,

[00:53:36] Meag: so much more. It also creates a more like trusting network of practitioners who can support each other too, because they don't just feel like word supported. They feel like, like that there's also like a material support of generosity of like, I'm willing to share in a world that tells me that there's not enough, that I'm going to run out of people, which is just not true.

[00:53:55] My dream job is going to come crashing down at any minute if I don't hoard as [00:54:00] much as I possibly can for myself. When you like deny that premise, And you are generous and you are connective. Everybody wins from that. Everybody wins. That's the kind of world I want to work in if I must, in fact, work for a living.

[00:54:16] Which apparently we do at this point. If this is the system, then I would like it to be as, um, loving as possible.

[00:54:23] Jessica: I agree. I agree. So if folks listening could take away one question based on our conversation today, what one question would you send them? On their way back, what would

[00:54:39] Meag: shift for you if you thought of your joy?

[00:54:44] Like a person that you were trying to court, woo, flirt with, what would happen? I love that. That's a fantastic

[00:54:57] Jessica: question. I love it. And we want to hear your answers. [00:55:00] So make sure you find us on socials or you send us emails, but let us know what comes up for you. And Meag, where can they find you?

[00:55:09] Meag: Okay. You can find me on Instagram at Meag, my first name, M A E G dot third sister.

[00:55:16] Third is spelled out. You can find me on my website, which is third dash sister. com. Those are the main places. I also have a sub stack called the gleaming feast. Yes. You have to mention that. And that's Meag Keane. substack. com. I

[00:55:35] Jessica: love the gleaming feast. I love what lands in my inbox.

[00:55:39] Meag: Wait, that means a lot because it's, uh, I know that the inbox can get cluttered.

[00:55:43] So it means a lot to me that people invite me into that space. So yeah, no, I find you in there. Like I skip over things,

[00:55:49] Jessica: like my little spark of joy that pops in my inbox. Thank you. Thank you so much for [00:56:00] being here. It's always a pleasure. Thank you for having me. I love venturing in. And y'all, if you've been thinking about getting an astrology reading, I cannot, cannot, cannot recommend.

[00:56:12] Meag, enough. Brilliant at what you do. And I'm so grateful for your presence in my life. So thank you. All right, y'all have a wonderful day and we'll see you on the next podcast.

[00:56:27] Thank you for listening to Reclaiming Our Spirit. To find out how I can help you reclaim your spirit, reach out to me at www. jessicapaschke. com. Leave me a message and I just may share how you reclaimed your spirit in the next episode.